Brazilian Ambassador to China Paulo Estivallet de Mesquita Photo: Li Hao/GT

Editor's Note:

This year marks the 45th anniversary of the establishment of diplomatic relations between China and Brazil and the 70th anniversary of the founding of the People's Republic of China. The cooperation between the two countries has become one of the most important ties in the world. Amid the trade tensions between the US and other countries, where would China-Brazil ties go? What opportunities do the two countries have? Global Times reporter Wang Bozun and Bai Yunyi (GT) interviewed Brazilian Ambassador to China Paulo Estivallet de Mesquita (Estivallet) on these regards.

GT: What is your impression of China since you took office half year ago? What do you think China's development means for Brazil?

Estivallet: I've always wanted to come to China, and work and live in China. So, I had read a lot about China and its history over the previous years, but nothing quite prepares you for the size, the dimension, the beauty and the dynamism of a country, such as China. So, I'm enjoying it enormously. There is a lot of information to absorb. There's much to learn. There's a lot of work because this is a very strong bilateral relationship. So the embassy organizes a lot of activities all the time. 

China is in some ways very open to foreigners. In other ways, some circles are not very open to foreigners, so this causes difficulties, but it's also one of the attractions of having this opportunity to live here. 

I'm trying to follow Chinese advice and trying to "cross the river by feeling the stones," I want to take it slowly, but it has been an extraordinary opportunity. 

We all admire what has been achieved in China over the last 40 years since the reform and opening-up. In our case, our relations were established a little before that, 45 years ago in 1974. Overall, the impact has been positive for everybody. We admire China a lot, such as the lifting of hundreds of millions of Chinese out of poverty. 

Of course, the speed of the changes in China posed some challenges also to the world and to Brazil itself. China has had a major impact on the global environment. It has also posed some challenges to those companies that operate in some sectors where China has been very aggressive and has really changed the conditions for competition. But again, overall, the impact has been very positive. We value China as a very important partner for business.

GT: President Jair Bolsonaro is expected to visit China this year. Could you tell us about his agenda in China? Will he announce Brazil's official participation in the Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) and sign MOUs on the BRI during his visit?

Estivallet: We are still discussing with Chinese authorities about the best time for his visit. So we don't yet have the date. But in general terms, the first thing we should take into account is that the immediate acceptance of China's invitation by President Jair Bolsonaro during his first year in office when the agenda in Brazil is very heavy proves that he attaches importance to the relationship with China.

He has also already sent an invitation to President Xi Jinping to visit Brazil at some point on some date which is to be determined. In addition, President Xi is expected to participate in the BRICS summit in Brazil in November. These demonstrate both Brazil and China determination to keep up with what is already a good relationship, a very important relationship for both countries. 

When the leaders of the two countries meet, they compare notes on the bilateral relationship. They will review current developments in the international system, and set priorities for their governments to push ahead toward an even higher level of this relationship.

(For participating in the BRI) I don't think we need a memorandum. And I think that we have a little bit of different understanding on the concept of a memorandum, it's perhaps even a cultural difference - in the way that it's a very general document and based on which you would later on take some action. 

We have such a good and intensive range of instruments and concrete investment and trade operations between the two countries, so we do not think a memorandum of understanding is necessary. 

We are looking forward to finding synergies between the BRI and Brazil's own development policies where we find a common ground, we will work together. And in fact, we have already been doing this even before the BRI. 

GT: Could you tell us how Brazil defines China? Does Brazil consider China an important partner, a serious threat, or a country which is "invading" Brazil with its capital, companies and influence?

Estivallet: I would not presume to define China as a country as diverse, complex and large. China doesn't fit into a simple category. China means many things for Brazil. It has been our main trading partner for ten years. It has become, in recent years, a very important investor in Brazil. Brazil is China's third largest trading partner in the West after the US and Germany. So it is a very close and solid relationship. 

Of course, as I mentioned before, there are challenges. We do not always share the same perspective on every issue, which is natural. Coming from different regions and having different circumstances, we don't always agree with each other, but we do have a very good dialogue. So we think that mutual respect and the desire for mutual understanding between the two countries lays a solid foundation for dealing with our differences. Even if we do not always reach an agreement, we have respect for each other's positions.

China has become one of the key players in the international system. We think China will continue to play an even bigger role in the coming years in the determination of what is the international system. And we look forward to continuing these dialogues with China for the mutual benefit of both countries, and we believe that both countries can together positively contribute to the world. 

GT: President Jair Bolsonaro's previous trip to the island of Taiwan as a "presidential candidate" has caused quite a lot of concern in Chinese mainland. Has the current Brazilian government changed its position on the one China principle? 



Estivallet: There is no secret that Brazil has had for a long time a good trade and investment relationship with the Separate Customs Territory of Taiwan, Penghu, Kinmen and Matsu.

But, this is completely separate from the recognition of the People's Republic of China as the sole legitimate government of China. And by the way, this recognition happened 45 years ago, and I am not aware of any discussions at any time regarding a possible change in this policy. 

GT: Previously, President Jair Bolsonaro said that China is "buying Brazil." Has Brazil changed its stance and attitude toward Chinese investment? What kind of Chinese investment are you most looking forward to?

Estivallet: We usually look at investment on a horizontal basis. The general direction of the Bolsonaro administration is to make Brazil more attractive for foreign investment, including Chinese investment. 

This requires an update or an opening-up of regulations in some areas to either allow foreign investment in or to provide better conditions for foreign investment. 

A lot of actions in recent months have been in the oil industry. Chinese companies are already very active, and we hope that they will continue to be very active in Brazil in the coming months and years.

Another area where Chinese investment has been active and where we expected to continue to be is in electricity transmission, where Chinese companies already have a large share of investment in Brazil. 

There are some areas where we have lacked foreign investment, but where we would like to see more investment both from China and other partners. We have learned that regulatory reform in those areas is difficult and takes time, but the government is determined to bring it to a conclusion. 

One of them is railway programs, for instance, where China has some very competitive firms, a lot of experience, and we look forward to its participation in the next steps of these programs. 

Also, manufacturing, we have had some important Chinese investment in some areas, and we are looking forward to receiving more. So Brazil remains open to investment from all sources, including China, and the government is working to make it even more welcoming to foreign investment. 

The rise of Chinese investment has been very fast. So sometimes some of the comments that you may read in the press can even be read as a measure of Chinese success rather than anything else, such as any possible restriction on China. 

GT: The ties between Brazil and the US are getting closer since President Bolsonaro took office. Do you believe this will lead to a deterioration of China-Brazil relations? Does Brazil seek to maintain balance between the US and China? 

Estivallet: We don't see this as a zero-sum game. On the contrary, we want to have the best relations possible with China and the US, and they are very good. So, we don't see this as a balancing act, because balancing gives the impression that if you increase on the one side, you would reduce on the other side. We want to have a relationship in all areas with both. 

Of course, in the case of China, the main thrust of the relationship which had developed especially in the last 30 years was economic cooperation, trade, and more recently, investment. There have also been other areas in science and technology we have had cooperation for a long time. And there are other areas where we look forward to much bigger interactions and exchanges with China. We think that we do not have enough tourism, for instance. We would like to have more students from China to Brazil and from Brazil to China. We would like to see more exchanges in sports, for instance. So we do not see an improvement in relationship with one country while deducting or in any way diminishing what we can do with the other. 

What we have always had with the US is an alliance that dates from 1942 and relates to the Defense of the Western Hemisphere. And in a very specific context, if it came up again, the alliance would still be there. But it's not the main thrust of this effort at improving relations with the US, and I do not see how this would impact, in any way, our relationship with China. 

On the contrary, we are looking forward to closer political ties, and on security issues. Of course, being as distant as we are, we do not share common security concerns, but we are trying to promote more exchanges and more dialogue between both our military authorities and security experts. 

So, again, it's not a matter of choice. We hope to improve our relations with the US, and at the same time, take our relations with China to an even higher level. 

GT: Vice President Hamilton Mourao said the Brazilian government will not exclude Huawei from operating a 5G mobile telecoms network. As one of the allies of the US, do you worry about more pressure from the US?

Estivallet: The thing in Brazil is that any conditions for participation by foreign companies have to follow transparent and objective criteria which are determined by law. So, we cannot subjectively prohibit a company because of its origin or name from participating. We will not in advance prevent Huawei because somebody has raised suspicions about the company. 

Now, having said that, 5G is a whole new area, which is very complicated. Regulations are not complete. In some of these regulations, we will take into consideration security issues. And these regulations, in turn, may have commercial implications. So, the sooner we have cooperation on these issues with Chinese authorities, the better it would be, because what we need is to ensure that there is trust between the authorities, and that this trust also applies to the companies that participate in. 

I'm not sure how this (pressure from the US) would happen in Brazil. As I said, the participation has to be based on what the law says. If you do not have objective criteria, this would be subject to judicial review. And I am not aware of any pressure in addition to some comments that have been made by the US. So, at this point, I'm not particularly worried. 

GT: As the largest country in Latin America, what position does Brazil think Latin America can take amid the escalated trade tensions between the US and China?  Have the tensions already impacted Latin America?

Estivallet: Unfortunately, at this time, we are simply witnesses or spectators in what are essentially bilateral exchanges between the two largest economies, in which there has been no room for participation by any other country. We hope that an arrangement will be made sooner rather than later, which establishes or generates enough space for confidence building between the US and China. 

Once we have the space for confidence building and dialogue aimed at something broader, in particular at re-establishing the condition for the normal operation of the WTO and for the reform of the WTO, which is also something essential in which both the US and China have a major role to play, Brazil and Latin America will be more than willing to contribute to and to participate in this kind of exchange. 

In some cases, there has been an opportunity for Latin American exports that compete with the US. On the other hand, we are very worried about the uncertainty, and second, whether any arrangement that the two countries might reach will be in compliance with international trade rules, so they will not be discriminatory.