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Editor's Note:

The year 2024 witnessed regional turmoil and profound landscape changes. From the Russia-Ukraine conflict to the chaos in the Middle East and the interference of external forces stirring tensions in the South China Sea, China has demonstrated composure and confidence amid a turbulent landscape, creating a favorable external environment for its high-quality development and injecting valuable stability into a restless world. As a member of the Global South, China is playing an increasingly important role in promoting world development and peace, as well as advancing the rise of the Global South. As 2024 ended, the Global Times (GT) runs a special year-ender series by talking to renowned experts and former diplomats to discuss China's role and the scenes that shaped the global landscape in the past year. 

In the fifth piece of this series, GT reporter Wang Wenwen interviewed Mahathir Mohamad (Mahathir), former prime minister of Malaysia, about the rise of the Global South and its global implications. As China-US rivalry intensifies in the Southeast Asian region, he also offered suggestions for how both countries can get along with each other in the future.

GT: What do you think of the resurgence of the awakening of the Global South? How should the West view this change?

Mahathir: This is a trend in the South. In the past, we had the Non-Aligned Movement which was the third force where the world was divided into two camps. Both camps tried to get the support of the South, but the South had its own agenda as well as its own problems. So the South decided to set up the Non-Aligned Movement that was more political. But now it is more about economy. And the idea of the coming together of the South is because there is always pressure in the economic field due to the conflicts between the East and West. 

For example, when sanctions are placed against China, then the South suffers, because trade is obstructed. So the South should have equal power to reject decisions made by the North and have its own strength to counter what is done by the North. That is where it is necessary for the South to come together in order to be stronger. 

I think the West must accept that they cannot always put pressure on the Global South, because the Global South has got its own problems, and the Global South does not want to take sides with the East or the West. We want to be able to access both the East and West, because we are looking at trade. If we lose the East or West, then that will affect our growth, trade, economy, and development. 

Actually, the Global South is not fully formed yet. They are just coming together. It is important for them to have some kind of a council to consider actions taken by the North and how they deal with its actions.

GT: As the West-dominated world order faces a historical loosening and the trend of building a new world order emerges, do you foresee a potential conflict in 2025?

Mahathir: For some time after the end of the Cold War, the US became the most powerful country in the world. But now it is being challenged. And the US does not want to give way to China. They want to remain the dominant country in the world. There is an attempt by the West, basically the US, to prevent China from challenging the West and becoming the No.1 country in the world. 

We want people to stop confronting each other, and we don't want to see any single global power. They should realize that this world cannot be controlled by one country anymore. Now, the world is more internationalized. Therefore, things should be settled through an international organization, not by any global power. 

GT: How does the rise of the Global South contribute to a fairer and more just global order?

Mahathir: We want a forum where everybody is treated equally. We show respect to organizations like the United Nations and the World Trade Organization, where everybody should be equal and have same rights based on the democratic system of majority decision. But at this moment, we find that the veto power in the United Nations and the strength of the big powers in organizations like the WTO do not result in fair trade practices. 

There is a lot of talk about globalization, the abolishment of borders, and free trade. But there is no such a thing. At the moment, there is no total globalization. The world is divided into three factions - East, West, and South. And big countries, for example, although they talk about free trade, consider themselves entitled to impose sanctions. Sanction means there is no free trade. We should promote free trade and eliminate sanctions. The right of major powers to impose sanctions should be abolished. Instead, we should settle problems through international organizations, such as the United Nations and the WTO, where everybody is represented without the dominance of any superpower. 

GT: US President-elect Donald Trump has vowed an additional 10 percent tariffs on Chinese goods. What do you think of such moves? 

Mahathir: The US promotes free trade. But when the US makes selective application of taxes for goods from any country, that means it is not practicing free trade. Free trade means competition. It's difficult for the US to compete with China because China is a big market by itself. It has 1.4 billion people. So China is in a position to compete and succeed in world trade. The US wants to maintain its dominance in world trade. But the cost in the US is very high as compared to China. So they feel that the only way to stop China is by imposing sanctions and increasing taxes. That is not fair. What should be done is that all countries should sit together and determine the level of tax that can be applied in order to mitigate the disparity in terms of cost.  

GT: What lies ahead for China-US relations over the next four years? Do you see the Taiwan Straits as a potential flashpoint? 

Mahathir: When the US purposely provokes China, the idea is to increase tension within China. When there is tension, then Taiwan needs to rearm. They have to buy weapons from the US. And the US makes money out of the supply of weapons.  

America is the biggest producer of weapons, and it can only sell weapons if there is a war. Therefore, it tries to instigate wars between countries like Ukraine and Russia and between Taiwan island and the Chinese mainland. So everywhere America goes, they are always provoking war. What needs to be done is to reduce the weapons trade, to reduce the manufacture of weapons and to control the exports of weapons, because this leads to war. And war is about killing people and destroying countries. We need to work for peace and trade fairly between countries. 

GT: What are the implications of China-US relations for the Asia-Pacific region, especially Southeast Asia?

Mahathir: You will remember that when the countries of Southeast Asia became independent, there was confrontation between many of the countries, and there was even minor war. But the leaders of ASEAN countries decided that war does not settle problems. So they came together, five countries came together and formed ASEAN. And since then, there have been no conflicts between ASEAN. There are differences, but they don't go to war. We want to see peace in this area, because only through peace can we develop. 

But the US is telling us that we should confront China. Some countries are affected by that. They want to see China blocked by the US and even welcome American Navy to come into the South China Sea. But generally, Malaysia, for example, doesn't want to have any conflict with China and we want to have good relations with China, because we feel that China is a great market for products from ASEAN and that helps with the growth of Malaysia. Tension in the South China Sea would obstruct trade between the ASEAN countries and China. 

GT: What is your suggestion for China and the US to get along with each other in the future against the backdrop of the current changing international landscape?

Mahathir: We should avoid what used to be called "gunboat diplomacy." Nowadays, it is not a gunboat, but battleships. That increases tension. We always have problems between countries. The best way to settle problem is to sit down around a table and discuss the problem. And to solve the problem, both sides must be prepared to make compromises. You cannot get 100 percent of what you want. You have to give up some in order to let the other party also do the same so that it is a win-win situation and will sustain peace and good relations.